[MassiveOverkill]

Will Griffin's test results (he's not on WolverineForums unfortunately)

 

[MassiveOverkill]

When installing my spider cage the upper right bolt snapped off. The other three bolts seem to be holding it in tight but, I 'm not sure how I'm going to get that fixed.
I was using a torque wrench set to 10 lbs so but have been a bad bolt??

This is a very common mistake due to the tight fit of the bearing support cage. I can't stress the importance of make sure it's installed flush and hand tightening all the bolts first to make sure it's seated flush and then with the transmission in neutral spinning turning the primary by hand to make sure nothing is binding. Bad ju ju can happen if it's not from trashing your wet clutch to ruining the shaft end, etc.

 

[MassiveOverkill]

You can see it hit 60 a little better in this run. She'll hold 55 MPH pretty easily without straining. Best part, listen to how quiet she is going around 45 MPH. Even though there's room for improvement, I'm really happy with the top speed, cruising speed, and noise improvements.

I don't know about you guys, but my goal is to be able to keep up with car traffic on highways, not drag race other SxS'. 65 MPH is a reasonable speed to not hold up traffic. I don't need to get there in record time but if she'll hold that speed sustained, that's good in my book. Are any of you looking for higher top speed wanting it so you can race your buddies or is your goal like mine, to keep up with car traffic as well as cruise at lower RPMs, improve fuel economy, and lower noise while cruising between 45-55 MPH while on paved roads?

In this run I have the CVT cover and paneling reinstalled, whereas they were removed in the first video.

 

[MassiveOverkill]

One thing I want to reiterate with more doing sheave work is the primary bearing support bracket or spider cage... this piece:

If you re-grease/repack the bearing, install it a couple times fully seated over the primary shaft and remove it and make sure the hydraulic pressure doesn't push the rubber seal up, bending the seal retainer bracket.

There are two thin-walled positioning sleeves installed on the longer bolt locations. Those sleeves are a tight fit and it's possible to install the bearing support cage skewed because they go in cockeyed. I now grease them so they go in a little easier into the holes. When I'm installing the bearing support cage I'll put it into place and gently tap it into place with a rubber mallet on the center to make sure it's fully seated before installing the bolts. I then install the bolts by hand and they should bottom out all the way with little resistance and it then only takes a couple turns of my ratchet to tighten them.

If you don't bottom out that bearing support cage first and use the bolts to seat it, that's when you have the possibility of installing the bearing support cage cockeyed. The results of either the rubber seal\retainer being cockeyed or the bearing support cage being cockeyed can mean an early wet clutch death. On my X4 one dowel was stuck in the cage and one was stuck in the CVT metal boss so it made it harder to install correctly. The sleeves are so thin, handling them with a set of pliers mars them up.

 

[MassiveOverkill]

Just some recommendations based on my experience so far (this is using HV greaseless weights, stock secondary spring, no shim, and swiss-cheeesed air filter lid):

26" stock tires:

Stock 22 gram or 21 gram weights are fine for trail riders. If you're using SpeedoHealer, you need to stick with heavier weights if you want maximum top speed......60 MPH plus

27" tires:

18 gram weights give you plenty of torque but your gas mileage will suffer. Mine went down to 15 MPG. With machined sheave and SpeedoHealer you'll still be able to hit 60 MPH
21 gram weights are great cruising weights. You'll notice a little torque loss. Gas mileage is great at 19 MPG. With machined sheave and SpeedoHealer you'll be down to 58 MPH

With 18 gram weights my engine temps ran hotter vs the heavier/near stock 21 gram weights.

19-20 gram weights I think will be perfect for the non-mudder. Will try and experiment with this weight next.

28" tires:

16-18 gram weights depending where you want the majority of your power. Choose 16 if more low end is desirable, choose 18 if more top end is desirable (beyond stock speed limiter).

Anything bigger and chances are you're running portals, which already has built-in gear reduction.

 

[MassiveOverkill]

The roller flat spotting, which should be renamed to 'scalping' for the X2/X4 is caused by the roller reaching the end of the cam plate where the sharp edge cuts the roller when you decelerate and the roller returns back into the sheave.

This picture the foreground cam plate channel is out of focus but if you look at the one behind it you can see how sharp it is and you can see that my rollers are getting full travel from the wear marks.

Here I've taken a file at 45 degrees to remove the sharp edge.

For those of you who think OD weights won't get scalped, think again, although it's not from bad castings. My roller channels were nice and smooth and even if they weren't to begin with, they would have been worn smooth and scalping still occurred.

If all you do is low speed riding you may never see this. Grease doesn't mitigate it as I've had it happen on my stock vehicle with OEM rollers and grease before I switched to HV weights and a machined sheave and obviously JBS always uses grease. This is much more likely to happen with a machined sheave as the weights are pushed closer or even past the cam plate edge.

 

[MassiveOverkill]

Getting the coated sheave is ideal as it's a pretty thick application of the dry lube. Believe it or not my prototype sheave didn't get that application and only got the benefit of the coating that was on the HV weights. I would do the HV sliders, especially on a non-coated sheave, but if you're going to use grease anyways, you can stick with the stock sliders.

I personally use Liquid Wrench's dry lube spray (with Cerflon) to touch up all my moving parts and coated sheave after I've serviced them. It's not as good (nor could you apply it as thick) as the dry lube Hunterworks uses, but it's close and certainly better than nothing. It's important you don't get it on the sheave faces but I'll treat all the rubber seals and sleeve inserts with it and work them back and forth before applying grease to them.

I'm a huge fan of dry lube coatings. I use dry lube coating on my AR-15 and Shield 9 mm with excellent results. I don't get it into the combustion chamber and repeated treatments increase its effectiveness.

This is the shot group from my dry-lubed AR-15 (I am also using a nitrided bolt carrier and nickle teflon trigger groups). I don't consider myself a marksman either and rarely get the chance to fire my AR on a regular basis. Once I figure out where my brass is landing, I can put a bucket or blanket in that area and the brass consistently lands in the same spot.

Shot group from my dry-lubed Shield 9mm, only mod is an SS guide rod spring. Obviously I trust my life to the stuff as this is my everyday CCW.

 

[MassiveOverkill]

Just to update you all on the misinformation that Timmy is spreading around. The majority of my increase in top speed is from a machined sheave, NOT SpeedoHealer. Now Timmy may be talking about the JBS X2/X4 sheave, but the sheave that Michael cut for me gets me 6-8 MPH over the stock sheave. With SpeedoHealer alone on stock tires and stock sheave, I was only able to get to 53 MPH via GPS from 49 MPH stock no matter what roller weights I used (stock 22 gram were best)

For 2019, Yamaha actually recalibrated the ECU so it's accurate with the stock tires so GPS speed is increased from 49 to 51 MPH with no mods, so SpeedoHealer alone on a stock 2019 X2/X4 is only going to get you 2 MPH increase.

So to summarize: You need SpeedoHealer to get past the speed limiter. ECU hack so far has failed. You can go with larger tires\lighter weights, but that's only going to get you so far, maybe 55-56 MPH and your rev limiter is going to kick in. You need a machined sheave to get beyond that and you need to stay on the heavier side of your roller weight selection to attain max top speed.

I'll also add this non-partisan, politically incorrect statement. For the vendors: Alba, Hunterworks, JBS, etc. the profit is in ECU flashing, so without success in hacking the ECU, there's not going to be much interest in machining a sheave that will take advantage of increased top speed a flashed ECU is going to provide. A machined sheave's biggest benefit is getting you increased top end. Increased low end can be achieved via shims and/or lighter primary weights alone. Selling the alternative solution: SpeedoHealer doesn't have much profit in it.

 

[MassiveOverkill]

Fixed Primary stock wear marks:

Fixed Primary first cut wear marks, can still mill some more:

Good for an extra 3 MPH (barely hit 56 MPH). Unfortunately we received 10 inches of snow so I'll have to wait for better weather to safely try again. Will disclose weights used at a later date.

Even with this first cut, she's like a bulldozer plowing snow compared to stock and I couldn't restrain myself:

 

[MassiveOverkill]

Stroodle, 18 gram weights are too light for stock size (26") tires in my opinion. Todd is offering those who bought a sheave a 2nd set of weights at cost. I'm hoping he'll honor this price even if you buy the weights after the initial purchase. I'd really like to see you give 20 or even 22 gram weights a shot. Even clean up your stock weights and throw them in there to see.

 

[MassiveOverkill]

Those of you who have upgraded and still have your stock rollers laying around, please inspect them for me. I just inspected my stock rollers (ran in grease from the factory) and I don't like what I'm finding (what you're looking at is flat spotting):

My X4 has been driven in sub 40 F temps for it's 870 some miles. Most of that has been low speed with occasional plowing, most of the plowing in 20-30 F temps.

UPDATE: I believe the flat spotting is probably due to my secondary spring cup being gouged by the guide pins:

https://www.wolverineforums.com/for...vt-sheaves-wet-clutch/25412-x4-3000-mile-sheave-service-also-applicable-x2.html

We've finally discovered the cause of flat spotted rollers in the X2/X4. The cam plate is cutting them when the roller reaches the end of the channel at high speed running. It's not something that will leave you stranded and not something you'll feel in seat-of-the-pants. Quite frankly, over time, it would give you more low end at the expense of top speed and would be subtle. I now consider roller weights in the X2\X4 a consumable item unless Yamaha updates the cam plate with longer ramps, but as you know Yamaha doesn't intend for it's SxS vehicles, other than the YXZ to do high speed or highway running. It's sad, because the cam plate ramp only need be extended a couple millimeters to fix this problem on stock vehicles.

 

[MassiveOverkill]

Massive are you considering the Weller racing ecu? Potentially with the added fuel 21 gram weights would work out great....

I'll hopefully have a unit for testing if weather permits. I'm going to try 19 gram weights. 21 were nice but just a little bit laggy and lowered my top end by 1-2 MPH.

 

[MassiveOverkill]

I'm getting some 19 gram weights to test with. The 21 gram weights I'm using now are just a little too heavy for my liking. 18's are actually 17.5 grams so I think 19's will be a sweet spot weight for slightly bigger tires and top end retention.

 

[MassiveOverkill]

My thoughts on Yamaha's X2/X4 wet clutch.

Reference video:

First of all I'm going to give credit to JBS for discovering that the X2/X4's wet clutch uses rubber bushings like Kawasaki Teryx's wet clutch. I don't like stealing other's information (as my own) and am willing to give credit where credit's due. Here's where we'll disagree. You'll see in James' (JBS) Teryx wet clutch video that he tries to move the clutch shoes in and out and has difficulty doing so vs the Yamaha (Rhino\Gen1\Viking) wet clutch which doesn't use grommets. The problem is that he's doing this on a new clutch that is dry, without the benefit of oil. I'm very confident that the clutch shoe will move in and out much easier with oil present. He sees these grommets hurting wet clutch performance. I see the opposite.

What the hell are you talking about Massive?!?! Basically you have a rubber grommet installed onto a post behind each clutch shoe. Each clutch shoe has a corresponding cylindrical hole cut out to match that rubber grommet. Under centrifugal force the clutch shoe will break-free and engage the clutch drum. The Teryx wet clutch also uses weaker springs than the Yamaha's.

Massive's thoughts: This makes perfect sense and isn't a flaw in my opinion. By using the rubber grommet design, what you're essentially doing is getting a higher stall speed. This can be done by using stronger springs, but if you use stronger springs, you reduce the clamping force exerted against the clutch drum. To refresh your memory the springs are there to hold the shoe back until the clutch is spinning fast enough to engage the drum.

By using a grommet, you can actually use weaker springs = have your cake and eat it too. The grommet raises the stall speed over a non-grommet design. The weaker springs increase force against the clutch shoe and lower stall speed. They equal each other out so you have a normal stall speed, but increased shoe pressure against the clutch drum for less slippage.

The're aren't any holes in the shoes to add weights so forget adding slugs to your wet clutch unless you're going to drill those holes yourself (which I don't recommend), and how much benefit would you be gaining over the weight of the material removed from drilling that hole in the first place?

What I do see as far as modding is changing either the thickness/size and/or compound of that rubber grommet to increase/decrease your stall speed. Removing it would lower your stall speed/shoe engagement. Also consider that synthetic oil could affect the slipperiness of that grommet, allowing the shoe to slip out easier.

One con: you better do timely oil changes as I can see those grommets eventually breaking down/wearing out and you don't want that crap running through your engine.

 

[MassiveOverkill]

The X2 big tire kit is 16 grams vs the X4 big tire kit which is 14 grams. If you like your OEM grease, you can use the HV weights with grease. The HV weight material is superior to the plastic Yamaha uses on the OEM weights.

 

[MassiveOverkill]

Ok. I was looking for a section for the X2/X4. So these are listed in the original wolverine/viking section and in the Rhino section. They must be have the same outer dimension as the oem. I am by no means an expert at these clutch setups and I would feel more comfortable if they had a listing in a section for our X4 AND X2's.

If/when he does machined sheaves for the X2/X4 you'll probably see that section added but yes, the rollers for the previous gen and current gen are the same dimensions and in most cases, same weight.

 

[MassiveOverkill]

Here you go:

https://www.hunterworks.com/inc/sdetail/64856/34145

For the cam plate sliders, you can get them here:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-X2-...iders-Set-8/263430167631?epid=9008334751&hash=item3d55a95c4f:g:upcAAOSwMGVaVtft

 

[MassiveOverkill]

Some more data for you

Stock belt width is 35 mm
Minimum width is 34.5 mm

My belt after 3K miles was 34.8 mm

Figure the math and my wear was .1 mm per 1500 miles so you can expect at least 7500 miles on an X2/X4 belt based on my results remembering that I do a bunch of high speed running.

 

[MassiveOverkill]

I got around to getting the primary/secondary sheave ratio, which is roughly 2.66:1

I don't want to get anyone's hopes up. Todd has been inundated with orders from his new Polaris belts so until things slow down in that market, we may not see a Hunterworks X2/X4 sheave for a bit. The Yamaha fan in me is greatly disappointed, but the businessman in me fully understands. When you have to get out 30 orders a day for belts in addition to the other products you sell, that's a lot of orders to get out and doesn't leave much time for much else if you're a 1-2 man operation. The fact that there's not much labor involved in selling belts like there is in machining sheaves, it's a no-brainer what you need to focus on for time and $$$ to pay the bills.

Couple that with the market for those that want to go 60 MPH in their X2/X4's..........the market just isn't there. Sure getting more grunt down low is great, but it's not like it's a necessity like the Viking/Gen 1 Wolverine. You add bigger tires/do mudding in an X2/X4 you simply use low more often, which was barely used if you were stock. Adding lighter weights (14 grams is too light btw) and is a cheap/sufficient solution if you only need more low end and don't care about top end.

Make sure you check out my 3K mile sheave service thread: https://www.wolverineforums.com/for...vt-sheaves-wet-clutch/25412-x4-3000-mile-sheave-service-also-applicable-x2.html