[Crow Hunter]

I have read quite a bit about "slugging" the clutches to improve belt life and throttle response.

My question is why doesn't Yamaha do this from the factory? If adding only a few grams of weight to the clutch shoes gives such a benefit, wouldn't it behoove them to not drill the holes as deep? Faster cycle time, less too wear, less waste chips to deal with, plus improved belt life and faster throttle response.

Being a manufacturing in a previous life and a value engineer now, I don't see why they are manufactured the way they are now.

What am I missing? There has to be a specific design benefit for lightening the clutch shoes or they wouldn't waste the resources on a non value added process just so people could add weight to it in the field.

Anyone enlighten me?

 

[TINKEN]

For the average driver, it's a smoother take off.

 

[Hunterworks]

I have read quite a bit about "slugging" the clutches to improve belt life and throttle response.

My question is why doesn't Yamaha do this from the factory? If adding only a few grams of weight to the clutch shoes gives such a benefit, wouldn't it behoove them to not drill the holes as deep? Faster cycle time, less too wear, less waste chips to deal with, plus improved belt life and faster throttle response.

Being a manufacturing in a previous life and a value engineer now, I don't see why they are manufactured the way they are now.

What am I missing? There has to be a specific design benefit for lightening the clutch shoes or they wouldn't waste the resources on a non value added process just so people could add weight to it in the field.

Anyone enlighten me?

I guess the best way to answer this, instead of asking why they don't do it, the better question is why do they do what they do and put a grizzly clutch in a heavy vehicle like the Wolverine but the bigger killer of clutches is the Viking.

But at same time, they designed the vehicle for 26" tires and when we put taller heavier etc and weight of items lots of parts start to fail so aftermarket companies like mine provide products to help fix the issues.

This list of why a manufacturer doesn't do something could go on and on. But for as long as I can remember aftermarket companies make things for all kinds of vehicles etc to improve something.

Todd

 

[Crow Hunter]

For the average driver, it's a smoother take off.

So the belt slip keeps it from jerking forward? While a slugged clutch has more of a "whiplash" type start?

Makes sense from a marketing standpoint.

 

[Crow Hunter]

I guess the best way to answer this, instead of asking why they don't do it, the better question is why do they do what they do and put a grizzly clutch in a heavy vehicle like the Wolverine but the bigger killer of clutches is the Viking.

But at same time, they designed the vehicle for 26" tires and when we put taller heavier etc and weight of items lots of parts start to fail so aftermarket companies like mine provide products to help fix the issues.

This list of why a manufacturer doesn't do something could go on and on. But for as long as I can remember aftermarket companies make things for all kinds of vehicles etc to improve something.

Todd

Now from a Value Engineering standpoint I can see why you would use the Grizzly clutch, even if it is a marginal application. It allows you to use a common part and reduces skus and requires no design resources.

I can definitely see the need to have aftermarket companies when people are going to make changes from stock tires or add other goodies.

I just think it odd that a slugged clutch seems to have quite a few advantages to the end user and Yamaha is adding to their internal costs to get rid of. If it cost them more to make a slugged clutch, I could definitely see why they wouldn't do it but it would actually cost them less to produce a "slugged" clutch without really having to change anything on the design. Just a minor manufacturing engineering change that would save them money in the long run.

That is why I figure there must be something else that I am missing that would make them add that extra step. Maybe someone should contact a Yamaha employee/engineer and suggest it as a cost savings idea. I bet they have some type of a Continuous Improvement idea reward system there. They did at the JOEM automotive manufacturer that I used to work at.

Of course, I have never owned a CVT vehicle slugged or unslugged.

Thanks for the info.

 

[TINKEN]

So the belt slip keeps it from jerking forward? While a slugged clutch has more of a "whiplash" type start?

Makes sense from a marketing standpoint.

There's no belt slip and no whiplash, it just engages sooner.

 

[Hunterworks]

Now from a Value Engineering standpoint I can see why you would use the Grizzly clutch, even if it is a marginal application. It allows you to use a common part and reduces skus and requires no design resources.

I can definitely see the need to have aftermarket companies when people are going to make changes from stock tires or add other goodies.

I just think it odd that a slugged clutch seems to have quite a few advantages to the end user and Yamaha is adding to their internal costs to get rid of. If it cost them more to make a slugged clutch, I could definitely see why they wouldn't do it but it would actually cost them less to produce a "slugged" clutch without really having to change anything on the design. Just a minor manufacturing engineering change that would save them money in the long run.

That is why I figure there must be something else that I am missing that would make them add that extra step. Maybe someone should contact a Yamaha employee/engineer and suggest it as a cost savings idea. I bet they have some type of a Continuous Improvement idea reward system there. They did at the JOEM automotive manufacturer that I used to work at.

Of course, I have never owned a CVT vehicle slugged or unslugged.

Thanks for the info.

Do you have one now?

Todd

 

[Twigsy]

So the belt slip keeps it from jerking forward? While a slugged clutch has more of a "whiplash" type start?

Makes sense from a marketing standpoint.

Absolutely ZERO whiplash with the slug kit. After installing them, starts are much more smooth now. Before the slug kit it was real jerky. Slow to engage and at a higher rev so it jerked forward or back. Slug kit works and smoothed it out nicely.

 

[Crow Hunter]

Do you have one now?

Todd

No, I do not.

I am currently trying to decide between a Wolverine and a Honda P1000. I have only owned Honda ATVs up to this point. I am also waiting to see if my Holy Grail of SXS is announced by either Honda or Yamaha. Which is a UTV with the suspension, trail riding, and interior features of a Wolverine melded with a auto/manual select option transmission and dump bed features from the Honda P1000.

I don't have any personal experience of ownership of CVT machines although I have ridden/driven my brothers 2008 Polaris RZR 800 and watch him smoke the belt on his Polaris Sportsman 500 going up the same hill as my Rincon, which is why I won't be buying a Polaris.

Being "one of those people" I like to research all my purchases A LOT before I make them (part of the fun) and one of my requirements for use is lots of low speed driving up and down hills. It doesn't sound like the Yamaha CVT or the Honda DCT is ideal for this. Since the Yamaha has more features I want, I have been spending time researching how CVTs work. While researching I have read that adding a slug kit may be preferred for this type of driving to reduce belt wear. Once I understood the physics/mechanics of how they worked and looked at your videos on how to install them, I became curious about why Yamaha was adding a potentially non value added process to their parts if the alternative would be superior.

I am currently making the assumption, based on value principles, that those blind holes that you are using to add weights to are being drilled by Yamaha for balancing purposes rather than specifically as a means of lightening for clutch balancing purposes. Similar to how brake rotors have a balancing cut between the inboard and outboard brake rotors to account for manufacturing tolerance variations.

Of course, I could be wrong.

I still don't understand why they don't make the clutches levers engage faster if it does give a significant improvement with no detrimental effects and it would save them money.

It is one of those things that drive value engineers crazy. Who knows, maybe someone in Marketing likes the way it looks, or like Tinken says, likes the way it "feels". (Been there, dealt with that)

I just want to make sure that whatever I purchase fits what I need it for and not get the wrong thing. Like buying a Honda Rincon that hits 10-12 MPH going down the hill in my back yard...

I appreciate the time you guys are taking in explaining stuff to me and your videos are very good.

 

[FordTruckMan]

No, I do not.

I am currently trying to decide between a Wolverine and a Honda P1000. I have only owned Honda ATVs up to this point. I am also waiting to see if my Holy Grail of SXS is announced by either Honda or Yamaha. Which is a UTV with the suspension, trail riding, and interior features of a Wolverine melded with a auto/manual select option transmission and dump bed features from the Honda P1000.

I don't have any personal experience of ownership of CVT machines although I have ridden/driven my brothers 2008 Polaris RZR 800 and watch him smoke the belt on his Polaris Sportsman 500 going up the same hill as my Rincon, which is why I won't be buying a Polaris.

Being "one of those people" I like to research all my purchases A LOT before I make them (part of the fun) and one of my requirements for use is lots of low speed driving up and down hills. It doesn't sound like the Yamaha CVT or the Honda DCT is ideal for this. Since the Yamaha has more features I want, I have been spending time researching how CVTs work. While researching I have read that adding a slug kit may be preferred for this type of driving to reduce belt wear. Once I understood the physics/mechanics of how they worked and looked at your videos on how to install them, I became curious about why Yamaha was adding a potentially non value added process to their parts if the alternative would be superior.

I am currently making the assumption, based on value principles, that those blind holes that you are using to add weights to are being drilled by Yamaha for balancing purposes rather than specifically as a means of lightening for clutch balancing purposes. Similar to how brake rotors have a balancing cut between the inboard and outboard brake rotors to account for manufacturing tolerance variations.

Of course, I could be wrong.

I still don't understand why they don't make the clutches levers engage faster if it does give a significant improvement with no detrimental effects and it would save them money.

It is one of those things that drive value engineers crazy. Who knows, maybe someone in Marketing likes the way it looks, or like Tinken says, likes the way it "feels". (Been there, dealt with that)

I just want to make sure that whatever I purchase fits what I need it for and not get the wrong thing. Like buying a Honda Rincon that hits 10-12 MPH going down the hill in my back yard...

I appreciate the time you guys are taking in explaining stuff to me and your videos are very good.

Something everyone seems to be overlooking here is engine idle speed. Yamaha engineered the shoes to engage the drum with a specific amount of force at a given engine rpm. This means, by adding our slug kits, we are decreasing the max engine idle speed acceptable to shift in and out of different gears while the vehicle is stopped, but engine is running. If the idle is too high, the shoes will be partially engaged, making it harder to shift gears, and also causing more wear when sitting still. The slug kits we use happen to have an appropriate weight, and do NOT engage too soon, BUT everything is about balance when it comes from the factory. They need to look at worse case scenarios, and wide ranges of possibilities, and still perform acceptably.

Also, if Yamaha did "slug" their clutches, but didn't have an aftermarket sheave with a lower starting ratio, they would then be losing applied torque to the rear wheels when starting from a dead stop. The engine makes less torque at lower rpm, so allowing the shoes to engage just a bit later, allows more torque applied when they do engage. This prevents stalling when the vehicle is trying to start moving slowly, yet under a heavy load from a stop.

The shoes were designed to work with stock tires, and to be dependable and last a long time. And they will do just that. However, when we start adding big heavy tires, and hotrodding things, the factory specs go out the window.

As for your comment of thinking the Wolverine CVT doesn't sound like it is good for slow speeds up and down hills, you couldn't possibly be further from the truth. If you leave it stock, it will do just that, all day long, and do it well. If you add bigger tires, slug it and add a sheave, and you won't believe how much better it does than even stock. The wolverine is no speed demon, it was made to crawl gnarly nasty terrain, and it truly does excel there.

My 2 cents.

FTM

 

[Crow Hunter]

Something everyone seems to be overlooking here is engine idle speed. Yamaha engineered the shoes to engage the drum with a specific amount of force at a given engine rpm. This means, by adding our slug kits, we are decreasing the max engine idle speed acceptable to shift in and out of different gears while the vehicle is stopped, but engine is running. If the idle is too high, the shoes will be partially engaged, making it harder to shift gears, and also causing more wear when sitting still. The slug kits we use happen to have an appropriate weight, and do NOT engage too soon, BUT everything is about balance when it comes from the factory. They need to look at worse case scenarios, and wide ranges of possibilities, and still perform acceptably.

Also, if Yamaha did "slug" their clutches, but didn't have an aftermarket sheave with a lower starting ratio, they would then be losing applied torque to the rear wheels when starting from a dead stop. The engine makes less torque at lower rpm, so allowing the shoes to engage just a bit later, allows more torque applied when they do engage. This prevents stalling when the vehicle is trying to start moving slowly, yet under a heavy load from a stop.

The shoes were designed to work with stock tires, and to be dependable and last a long time. And they will do just that. However, when we start adding big heavy tires, and hotrodding things, the factory specs go out the window.

As for your comment of thinking the Wolverine CVT doesn't sound like it is good for slow speeds up and down hills, you couldn't possibly be further from the truth. If you leave it stock, it will do just that, all day long, and do it well. If you add bigger tires, slug it and add a sheave, and you won't believe how much better it does than even stock. The wolverine is no speed demon, it was made to crawl gnarly nasty terrain, and it truly does excel there.

My 2 cents.

FTM

Ah. Interesting, thank you very much! That makes a lot of sense.

If I get one, it will remain stock. I don't do deep water or mudding, I go around.

The ability to develop some torque, particularly loaded on a hill, would probably be advantageous to me. I will likely use it instead of my mower with my dump trailer. I dump stuff in the corner of the lake below the house and the stupid John Deere mower will burn the grass if I leave the throttle up but it won't pull if I don't.

I am a little leery of hill related stuff as I killed my very nice cutting Husqvarna mower when I cooked the Tuff Torque K46 in it going up and down with my fat @$$. I had to upgrade to a much bigger K72 with a terrible cut to keep mowing.

I appreciate the comments!

 

[Crow Hunter]

Also, thank you very much for the reassurance about the hills. That is my biggest concern and why I am very leery of the Honda P1000 (well that and a hot seat). I have read a lot about DCT shuddering and burning up clutches on the P1000 forums. Now how much of that is related to a design problem, operator error or manufacturing errors, I don't know. But it is enough that combined with the hot seat issue, I am not sure the cool manual shift option is worth it.

You guys rock!

 

[walters]

you said u want to slowly run up and down hills, it sounds like the wolverine is the machine for u, ive owned Polaris, Yamaha, and now my son owns a can-am, all have giving no problems, so I'm not bias in no way, but when it comes to slow climbing the wolverine is part billygoat, that's the highest mark I give it is the smooth acceleration on climbing. and I never smelt the belt or felt the belt slip

 

[SteveS]

No, I do not. ...........
Being "one of those people" I like to research all my purchases A LOT before I make them (part of the fun) and one of my requirements for use is lots of low speed driving up and down hills. It doesn't sound like the Yamaha CVT or the Honda DCT is ideal for this. Since the Yamaha has more features I want, I have been spending time researching how CVTs work. While researching I have read that adding a slug kit may be preferred for this type of driving to reduce belt wear. Once I understood the physics/mechanics of how they worked and looked at your videos on how to install them, I became curious about why Yamaha was adding a potentially non value added process to their parts if the alternative would be superior.
..............

One thing that you stated here may help in explaining the slug kit function. The slug kits do not help in belt wear. The Yamaha CVT has a "wet clutch" upstream of the sheaves and belt. This is an oil bathed centrifugal friction clutch. The belt does not ever disengage from the pulleys to enable the engine to idle. The original "snowmobile" CVT designs did actually let go of the belt in order to act as a clutch. Hence the common term of "Clutch" being used for a CVT system. This is actually not a good term for the Yamaha CVT (as well as some of the other manufacturers). It is quite misleading to say that the belt has anything to do with being a clutch.

The slug kit goes into the Wet Clutch and serves to reduce slipping of the true clutch at start out. The resulting wear reduction benefits the wet clutch and not the belt.

 

[Crow Hunter]

One thing that you stated here may help in explaining the slug kit function. The slug kits do not help in belt wear. The Yamaha CVT has a "wet clutch" upstream of the sheaves and belt. This is an oil bathed centrifugal friction clutch. The belt does not ever disengage from the pulleys to enable the engine to idle. The original "snowmobile" CVT designs did actually let go of the belt in order to act as a clutch. Hence the common term of "Clutch" being used for a CVT system. This is actually not a good term for the Yamaha CVT (as well as some of the other manufacturers). It is quite misleading to say that the belt has anything to do with being a clutch.

The slug kit goes into the Wet Clutch and serves to reduce slipping of the true clutch at start out. The resulting wear reduction benefits the wet clutch and not the belt.

I said belt but I was thinking clutch shoes. Can't you read my mind?

Thank you for pointing that out.

 

[1brokeford]

To the Crow Hunter - - I too have been riding Honda ATV 4 wheelers since they were 3 wheelers, I now have 2 - 650 Rincons that have been fanatastic machines since 05 - one of them has 7000 miles plus on it . I know exactley
what you are talking about when speaking about 10-15 mph down hill and basically no engine brakes - -but they do have good brakes. You will be pleasantly surprised on how well the Wolverine does at low speeds especially in low range - you will have to give it gas to make it go down hill!! when on our Rincons we would be riding the brakes and in 1st gear . The biggest thing I had to get used to was " Not Changing Gears" After 11 years of my Rincon changing ,the constant whine of the engine just going faster and faster took some time. Believe me - It won't break - - just sounds like it. I have been perfectly satisfied with mine since day one. I picked it up at the dealership on the way to Arkansas to ride and put 300 miles on it on the first outing. No problems . Never thought I would say this but, the thing will go alot of places the Rinny would have issues with and believe me I have put it to the test.

 

[Snake2715]

Second the wolverine for climbing and low end slow starting.. your comment on the burning grass thing got me thinking. There is no turf mode on this machine and if you have it in 2 or 4WD and take off it can bite into the grass. Sounds like you are very concerned about the grass if the burning upset you so take that into consideration as well. I would think most of these machines will do that however.

 

[Crow Hunter]

Second the wolverine for climbing and low end slow starting.. your comment on the burning grass thing got me thinking. There is no turf mode on this machine and if you have it in 2 or 4WD and take off it can bite into the grass. Sounds like you are very concerned about the grass if the burning upset you so take that into consideration as well. I would think most of these machines will do that however.

Turf mode would be a nice to have but right now, I don't tear up my yard enough to bother me with my ATVs.

Actually with the mower, I have done more tearing up with the differential unlocked turning on a slightly wet downhill slope and trying to go back up and having that big bar tire start to spin and dig a hole. Locking the diff on the mower lets me get out of that.

Having it torn up a little doesn't bother me as much as burning it. If it tears up a little, it will grow back fairly quickly. When I burn a patch of it with that stupid mower, it will sometimes scorch it bad enough that it dies and it is a wide enough patch that it takes a while to grow back.

That is one of the reasons the Honda P1000 is #2 on my list right now. Wolverine is still number one right now. I think it will mostly come down to this coming weekend when I take my wife up to the dealership and let her sit in or ride and see which one she likes more.

 

[Gfam828]

Turf mode would be a nice to have but right now, I don't tear up my yard enough to bother me with my ATVs.

Actually with the mower, I have done more tearing up with the differential unlocked turning on a slightly wet downhill slope and trying to go back up and having that big bar tire start to spin and dig a hole. Locking the diff on the mower lets me get out of that.

Having it torn up a little doesn't bother me as much as burning it. If it tears up a little, it will grow back fairly quickly. When I burn a patch of it with that stupid mower, it will sometimes scorch it bad enough that it dies and it is a wide enough patch that it takes a while to grow back.

That is one of the reasons the Honda P1000 is #2 on my list right now. Wolverine is still number one right now. I think it will mostly come down to this coming weekend when I take my wife up to the dealership and let her sit in or ride and see which one she likes more.

Crow Hunter you obviously sound like a very intelligent person. Doing what sounds like extensive research on your upcoming purchase. Spending countless hours on P1000 forum and Woly forum, asking great questions which I have learned from the answers our members have offered. And for what...to have your wife sit in them at the dealership to make the decision. I love it!!!
I hope she likes the Woly.

 

[Crow Hunter]

Crow Hunter you obviously sound like a very intelligent person. Doing what sounds like extensive research on your upcoming purchase. Spending countless hours on P1000 forum and Woly forum, asking great questions which I have learned from the answers our members have offered. And for what...to have your wife sit in them at the dealership to make the decision. I love it!!!
I hope she likes the Woly.

Thank you for the complement!

But as everyone says, if the wife ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.