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Primary collar

849 Views 32 Replies 9 Participants Last post by  Desertdweller67, 
kman23
I am into my 1600 mile service on my primary and secondary. I was very careful to lay various parts out on my bench so that I would know exactly how to put it all back together.
Except for the primary collar (pic). Which way does the smaller diameter of the inside of the collar point to?
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Ghost23
MassiveOverkill said:
Just random thinking: I wonder how many RMAX owners who have belt bark are using shims and how many aren't.
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I use a shim, no grease, 21g weights, new gen sliders, slippery washer, 32's. No belt bark. I did have belt bark in the x2 greaseless.
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Budro2
MassiveOverkill said:
Just random thinking: I wonder how many RMAX owners who have belt bark are using shims and how many aren't.
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You can count me and Kman as 2.
Desertdweller and Jkechter both had barking with earlier Gen sliders like me. They didn’t have a shim.
They both have a shims now and the latest Gen sliders and reported no bark. We’ll see if that changed when they return from Moab this time!
In theory, if shims play a role, it would be due to the lower ratio created and not the shim itself. My barking was with a shim and stock sheave which isn’t as low a ratio as a Weller sheave and no shim.
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MassiveOverkill
Budro2 said:
You can count me and Kman as 2.
Desertdweller and Jkechter both had barking with earlier Gen sliders like me. They didn’t have a shim.
They both have a shims now and the latest Gen sliders and reported no bark. We’ll see if that changed when they return from Moab this time!
In theory, if shims play a role, it would be due to the lower ratio created and not the shim itself. My barking was with a shim and stock sheave which isn’t as low a ratio as a Weller sheave and no shim.
Click to expand...
My theory is that with the shim, the secondary spring has an issue returning the primary back to fully closed and/or the belt has so little surface to grab onto with max shim.
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Budro2
MassiveOverkill said:
My theory is that with the shim, the secondary spring has an issue returning the primary back to fully closed and/or the belt has so little surface to grab onto with max shim.
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I wouldn’t say that there couldn’t be something to it. In part because I was one of the few with a gen 1 machine with horrible bark issues. The others with gen 1 issues also ran shims. I ran 1.5mm in conjunction with a HW sheave so the ratio was quite low. I ran 3 different springs in that time but don’t recall if one was worse than another. If that theory is correct then a heavier spring should compensate and would be worth a test if someone was up for it.
I can’t buy into the less belt contact theory because if it was a grip issue then I’d still be barking with grease.
I’m hesitant to go with either theory because I’ve never had one hiccup on either machine with grease while running the same sheave/shim combo. In fact I’ve even reduced the ratio further on the Rmax than when i previously had problems and still have no hiccups, so if it was a secondary spring issue then that just proves grease slides easier than dry, assisting the secondaries ability to return the primary all the way home.
I am of that mind regardless because I’ve had plenty of barks when I new for sure that my sheave was dust free.
Dust just complicates the matter further.
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kman23
I will pay close attention when the bark happens during my rides this weekend. It would be nice if it just doesn't happen again.
I will have the RMAX on some tough trails. I gotta push it to see if my buddies can keep up with me in their KRXs.
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DirtRoadWarrior
MassiveOverkill said:
Just random thinking: I wonder how many RMAX owners who have belt bark are using shims and how many aren't.
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No Shims, No Bark for me.
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Budro2
kman23 said:
I will pay close attention when the bark happens during my rides this weekend. It would be nice if it just doesn't happen again.
I will have the RMAX on some tough trails. I gotta push it to see if my buddies can keep up with me in their KRXs.
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If you really want to know if it’s functioning properly with out a doubt, do some good hard fast stops with the brake and then get on the throttle quickly or drive in low fast, do a hard stop, switch to high and jump on the throttle.
When I ran my old machine with the covers off and console out, I could do all these things and watch the CVT. I would even test it rolling to a stop. Rolling to a stop gives it a chance to get to the lowest ratio better but when it was dirty it often wouldn’t even achieve the low ratio rolling. A quick stop is when you get the most slack. Even when I could see slack in the belt, if I got on the throttle easy like, the belt wouldn’t bark. It would just feel sluggish on take off. This is why I say stop hard and go hard. More slack equals a louder bark and a lurch when the belt grabs. That’s why deep snow is always a good test. When you release the throttle spinning the tires the snow load stops the tires abruptly just like braking. You switch from forward to reverse and get on it and the belt barks.
I think depending on how people drive is sometimes the difference. I’ve always believed that some people may have symptoms but there driving style doesn’t produce the bark.
I can go out of my way to force it to do these things with grease and it will never happen.
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Paul65
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DirtRoadWarrior
Budro2 said:
If you really want to know if it’s functioning properly with out a doubt, do some good hard fast stops with the brake and then get on the throttle quickly or drive in low fast, do a hard stop, switch to high and jump on the throttle.
When I ran my old machine with the covers off and console out, I could do all these things and watch the CVT. I would even test it rolling to a stop. Rolling to a stop gives it a chance to get to the lowest ratio better but when it was dirty it often wouldn’t even achieve the low ratio rolling. A quick stop is when you get the most slack. Even when I could see slack in the belt, if I got on the throttle easy like, the belt wouldn’t bark. It would just feel sluggish on take off. This is why I say stop hard and go hard. More slack equals a louder bark and a lurch when the belt grabs. That’s why deep snow is always a good test. When you release the throttle spinning the tires the snow load stops the tires abruptly just like braking. You switch from forward to reverse and get on it and the belt barks.
I think depending on how people drive is sometimes the difference. I’ve always believed that some people may have symptoms but there driving style doesn’t produce the bark.
I can go out of my way to force it to do these things with grease and it will never happen.
Click to expand...
Just to add to my experience of running greaseless, on my 2nd 100 mile outing after my CVT rebuild, I encountered a surge or lurch forward from a dead start on a few occasions. Of the 5 or 6 times it did this, this lurch forward happened after both from traveling at slower speeds (under 20 mph) and after higher speeds. I ride in High and Trail mode most of the time. In sport mode the lurch is exaggerated quite a bit. Thinking it was the belt grabbing prematurely before the wet clutch did it's thing. My understanding is that the wet clutch is what starts the machine rolling from a dead start. On my 3rd 100 miler I didn't encounter any surges. I went from low, crawl mode to high, sport mode with no issues.
On a side note, I blew out the primary after the 1st and 2nd outings. Now I'm experimenting of not blowing out the CVT. I believe my 4 mile, 50mph return home ride in sport mode is doing the blowing out process for me. :)
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Budro2
Nothing turns until the wet clutch turns so any lurch at all, like it revving up and then grabbing is belt slack whether it barks or not.
Sport mode being worse makes sense because it’s like getting on the throttle quick.
If slack is in the belt and you take off real easy you won’t feel or hear anything because the secondary takes up the slack slower as it begins to turn and when the belt gets tight your still just easing into it.
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DirtRoadWarrior
Budro2 said:
Nothing turns until the wet clutch turns so any lurch at all, like it revving up and then grabbing is belt slack whether it barks or not.
Sport mode being worse makes sense because it’s like getting on the throttle quick.
If slack is in the belt and you take off real easy you won’t feel or hear anything because the secondary takes up the slack slower as it begins to turn and when the belt gets tight your still just easing into it.
Click to expand...
Yep. After encountering the surge, I gently eased the throttle up in trail mode and it seemed to reduce the urge to surge. Again, my last outing I didn't get any surge in any mode or throttle feathering. I say, it's time for another 100 miler! :p
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Budro2
DirtRoadWarrior said:
Yep. After encountering the surge, I gently eased the throttle up in trail mode and it seemed to reduce the urge to surge. Again, my last outing I didn't get any surge in any mode or throttle feathering. I say, it's time for another 100 miler! :p
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Run it 500 miles without blowing it out.
If you have no hiccups then greaseless will work for you.
You’re a faster mover. I tried to go 500 and it got worse and worse. I’m a slower mover. Once I started blowing out and it was clean it still just wasn’t functional in certain situations and never stayed functional for a full day ride.
Blowing out every ride or even every 100 miles doesn’t seem to have any value for greaseless IMO.
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Desertdweller67
I have about 500 miles on my newly serviced cvt. Added new gen sliders, spacers, and greasless. I did have it bark three times. It never occurred while crawling. If it remains at this low occurrence I am good staying greasless.
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