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Primary collar

841 Views 32 Replies 9 Participants Last post by  Desertdweller67
I am into my 1600 mile service on my primary and secondary. I was very careful to lay various parts out on my bench so that I would know exactly how to put it all back together.
Except for the primary collar (pic). Which way does the smaller diameter of the inside of the collar point to?
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Kman23, just as a FYI, if you use both .5mm shims you will only lose 5mph off your top end. If you don’t drive over 65 mph it won’t mean anything but the low end performance will be very valuable if you do slow moving through rocks, haul heavy loads or pull anything!
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I just did my own, and I used two .5 shims. I put one on each side of that collar. On mine, I had trouble getting a shim thru the sheave, but finally went thru. There are just a little bit of splines showing under the cam plate, but I believe its enough.
Next time you service, put both on behind the collar. Those shims don’t fit the shaft precisely so it’s hanging down and not centered with the hole. You could damage the seal.
My shims fit exact so I don’t have that issue using them on the outside.
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I went on a 25 mile ride this evening. Twice in low and once in high I got some "belt bark" when I pulled out from a stop. Level ground.
Any chance you installed the sliders upside down?
The sheaves are not returning to the lowest ratio upon stopping which leaves a slight bit of slack in the belt until movement begins again. It can be a problem with dust accumulation when running greaseless. Historically greaseless has not worked for me but never at 25 miles into initial service. After the barks began and it was blown out clean, I could get them in 25 miles or an hour of riding dry dusty trails. That’s why I wonder about the sliders. If they are installed incorrectly they can’t move back to the lowest ratio the way they should. They will hang up.
Otherwise you must be riding some serious dusty trails?
No. I was very careful, watching Massive Overkill's videos during each step. Made sure the "I" faced the correct way, toward the inside.
🤷‍♂️ Maybe MO or Tinken will have an idea. Are they the latest sliders developed?
Not knocking it, plenty of happy people without problems but after multiple attempts on two different machines I’m over it. Even when freshly serviced and no dust I’d get barks after rolling backwards off steep climbs I didn’t make and when going forward and back in deep snow.
The sliders have been advanced since my last attempt but I’m to gun shy at this point.
My personal opinion will remain that it’s intended to have grease to be 100% trouble free.
Yep. I used the tool, they were fully seated, the line faced the inside, and the cam plate moved slippery smooth.
I am super OCD.
The shims are between the collar and the fixed sheave.
As far as ut being dusty. I rode alone (other than my GSD) so I wasn't sucking in dust.
I don't really want to go back to the stock setup, the new performance is so much better. I hope I can track down the issue.
I have several hundred miles of riding planned this weekend, I hope it does ok.
As far as sucking up dust, “IF” it is a dust issue, you don’t have to be following anyone.
I don’t ride with anyone, and dust has been a problem for me.
The bark is really quite harmless, just annoying. The down side to the problem is, is that if it’s barking, it’s not in the lowest ratio on take off so it feels gutless. It defeats the purpose of shimming and is worse on take off than stock performance. My experience is that if it barks occasionally, there are countless other times it doesn’t bark but the starting ratio is like being stuck in high gear. I can feel it and I’ve watched it play out over and over with covers off. Not enough slack to bark but the belt recessed down in the secondary at take off.
The shims and shim placement have nothing to do with the issue.
I would just drive it and see if it gets better or worse. If it’s worse get it out in the open and drive it fast. That helps expel the dust.
Bear in mind all the things you did that improved performance can still be had while putting grease in it. You keep the performance and get rid of the problem. You don’t have to go back to stock!
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Just random thinking: I wonder how many RMAX owners who have belt bark are using shims and how many aren't.
You can count me and Kman as 2.
Desertdweller and Jkechter both had barking with earlier Gen sliders like me. They didn’t have a shim.
They both have a shims now and the latest Gen sliders and reported no bark. We’ll see if that changed when they return from Moab this time!
In theory, if shims play a role, it would be due to the lower ratio created and not the shim itself. My barking was with a shim and stock sheave which isn’t as low a ratio as a Weller sheave and no shim.
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My theory is that with the shim, the secondary spring has an issue returning the primary back to fully closed and/or the belt has so little surface to grab onto with max shim.
I wouldn’t say that there couldn’t be something to it. In part because I was one of the few with a gen 1 machine with horrible bark issues. The others with gen 1 issues also ran shims. I ran 1.5mm in conjunction with a HW sheave so the ratio was quite low. I ran 3 different springs in that time but don’t recall if one was worse than another. If that theory is correct then a heavier spring should compensate and would be worth a test if someone was up for it.
I can’t buy into the less belt contact theory because if it was a grip issue then I’d still be barking with grease.
I’m hesitant to go with either theory because I’ve never had one hiccup on either machine with grease while running the same sheave/shim combo. In fact I’ve even reduced the ratio further on the Rmax than when i previously had problems and still have no hiccups, so if it was a secondary spring issue then that just proves grease slides easier than dry, assisting the secondaries ability to return the primary all the way home.
I am of that mind regardless because I’ve had plenty of barks when I new for sure that my sheave was dust free.
Dust just complicates the matter further.
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I will pay close attention when the bark happens during my rides this weekend. It would be nice if it just doesn't happen again.
I will have the RMAX on some tough trails. I gotta push it to see if my buddies can keep up with me in their KRXs.
If you really want to know if it’s functioning properly with out a doubt, do some good hard fast stops with the brake and then get on the throttle quickly or drive in low fast, do a hard stop, switch to high and jump on the throttle.
When I ran my old machine with the covers off and console out, I could do all these things and watch the CVT. I would even test it rolling to a stop. Rolling to a stop gives it a chance to get to the lowest ratio better but when it was dirty it often wouldn’t even achieve the low ratio rolling. A quick stop is when you get the most slack. Even when I could see slack in the belt, if I got on the throttle easy like, the belt wouldn’t bark. It would just feel sluggish on take off. This is why I say stop hard and go hard. More slack equals a louder bark and a lurch when the belt grabs. That’s why deep snow is always a good test. When you release the throttle spinning the tires the snow load stops the tires abruptly just like braking. You switch from forward to reverse and get on it and the belt barks.
I think depending on how people drive is sometimes the difference. I’ve always believed that some people may have symptoms but there driving style doesn’t produce the bark.
I can go out of my way to force it to do these things with grease and it will never happen.
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Nothing turns until the wet clutch turns so any lurch at all, like it revving up and then grabbing is belt slack whether it barks or not.
Sport mode being worse makes sense because it’s like getting on the throttle quick.
If slack is in the belt and you take off real easy you won’t feel or hear anything because the secondary takes up the slack slower as it begins to turn and when the belt gets tight your still just easing into it.
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Yep. After encountering the surge, I gently eased the throttle up in trail mode and it seemed to reduce the urge to surge. Again, my last outing I didn't get any surge in any mode or throttle feathering. I say, it's time for another 100 miler! :p
Run it 500 miles without blowing it out.
If you have no hiccups then greaseless will work for you.
You’re a faster mover. I tried to go 500 and it got worse and worse. I’m a slower mover. Once I started blowing out and it was clean it still just wasn’t functional in certain situations and never stayed functional for a full day ride.
Blowing out every ride or even every 100 miles doesn’t seem to have any value for greaseless IMO.
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