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Discussion Starter #161
At work I don't mix chemicals just because the engineers don't have any base data on the mixture and they want to go with what they know as per insurance claims for repairs later.
But we are talking multi-million dollar Turbines, so if there is a failure, they look at all aspects and consider changes to the machine or lubricant even.
I do sneak a little kroil in my anti-seize though as I just like a thin coat.....lol.

30yrs as a Union Millwright, I have spent a lot of time installing, repairing and servicing machinery in Power houses, Chemical Plants and Automotive Plants.
So I have been around and experienced many lubricants. Not to mention all the conversations I've had with Engineering Departments on this subject.

Long story short, if I notice something about a product that gets my attention, I will do further testing in my shop.
Then I consider the benefits and how those benefits can contribute to some of my other favorite lubes to make those lubes better for a wider range of uses or just improve a product.
I do read several MSDS sheets to see the chemical composition and see if any products will have adverse reaction.
Once I'm good, I will mix to what I'm looking for and test on small bearings and moving parts in the shop when I have time.
I check heat, wear and harmonics.

Other times I mix and when my gut says it's good, I run with it.....lol

I do like the improvements that these mixes provided each other and that's why I'm strongly considering them in my next service.
Hope that helps.
 

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Discussion Starter #162 (Edited)
Nothing like going on a ride before Maintenance....lol. To cold to wash and I'm working in the carport today.
Time to change out the Primary to Hunterworks, so I'd thought I'd post the removal/inspection pics here.
Just some pics of 'as found' Tinkseal level.
Primary is 100% Tinkseal.
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Discussion Starter #163
More Pics, I'll edit later.
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Primary Movable wear.
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Secondary Pics
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Just looking at the surface rust on your secondary spring gives me the heebee geebees. It's a good thing you're doing routine service to prevent moisture/rust from accelerating your secondary's wear along with upgrading your lubes.
 

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Discussion Starter #165 (Edited)
For sure.
What's weird is it doesn't look half as bad in person as the pics show.
It even has a film coating. Even the Primary cover shows it, but it's coated in a wet/tacky film from the Tinkseal.
I'm thinking the Tinkseal doesn't contain any rust inhibitors. That's fine as I'm super impressed with what I'm finding. Pictures don't do it justice.

More pics to come, but I want to mention the spring cup.
I did what you did Massive and coated Tinkseal where the spring contacts the cup and opposite spring seat. Also a skim coat on the bottom of the cup.
I don't know if pics will show it, but it's obvious that the cup is turning somehow.
1st- No excessive wear inside the cup.
2nd- The wear is spread out and all around in the center band area.
I don't have to do any service to the cup beside clean it.
Some Pics...
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Pics do not show it that good, but that wear pattern goes all the way around and is even.


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Discussion Starter #166
Some more Pics of Secondary. Edit later.
I'll also note that this is my Moly/Tinkseal Mix.
I forgot I swapped out weights for testing and switched to my mix for testing when I went back to 18g HV weights.
Grove wear appears very minimal, I will inspect further after a good cleaning.
Also, I added the recommended amount to the Secondary, it appears that there is room for more lube.
I didn't add any extra as these were old seals. I have new seals now to go back with.
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Discussion Starter #167
If you've followed the thread, this is the old cage bearing that had burnt up grease that made the ringing sound.
It was reused and packed w/ 100% tinkseal.
It's still running smooth with out any noise. I was going to replace it, but I can't find my blind hole pullers.
I will clean and inspect. If it's good I will repack with my Mobile mix.
Seal will be replaced.
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Discussion Starter #168
Old as originally found support cage bearing.
And pic of repacked old bearing before this service.
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You've outdone yourself on these, bud. Thanks - this is like the ultimate clutch porn.

Your primary was not greaseless, it was grease, but it was Tinkseal. Well it doesn't look anything like the OEM grease, it actually looks more like greaseless! My OEM primary was packed full of grease, enough to be a seal that we have discussed here. That grease seal being the reason why the grease design doesn't suffer from the belt bark. Lot going on here, main thing is yours doesn't have much grease to make that seal? That make sense?

When you go back I'd like to see how much Tinkseal you put there. The next time I go in - before spring riding season - I'm going back with grease (Tinkseal?) (not greaseless as I cannot stop the belt bark) and the new sliders. THANKS!

This is SKELLEY521's picture from post #162 above:

 
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Discussion Starter #170
Thanks Paul and you posted a pic that I was just thinking about.
First, I used more than the recommended amount of Tinkseal.
I measured the Tinkseal to Yamaha's recommended amount; installed and then test drove the machine to get it to flow out.
I pulled the Primary and opened for inspection.

Tinkseal feels thinner than a SGLI-1 grease, but it levels out and stays.
The grease cover just shows a line that is the same thickness as what's on the outer walls of the sheave.
I don't know if Tinkseal feeling thinner flows out more or if the recommended amount isn't enough.
But I mentioned back in this thread that I added more to bring the level flush with the ends of the cam plate.
I'm thinking I added half of the recommended amount more

Here is a pic of as found factory greased Primary...
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Here is a pic of using the Recommended amount, test drove to level out and pulled for the pic.....Left side of Pic
I added more Tinkseal then and it appears to be a good level as it's flush with cam plate.
Right side of pic is from today.
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Discussion Starter #171
I live in WV, it's coal country and I do a lot of dirt/mud playing.
The inside of the Primary is very clean.
I do have some issues with the Yamaha parts themselves that I will mention later, but here is a pic after pulling the cam plate and rollers.
As found... It's nice and clean.
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Discussion Starter #172
I probably won't have my primary cover o-ring for a couple days. I want to replace as it has several flat spots.
I also ordered new cover bolts and crush washers. Price of a beer, it's worth having on hand.
Now let's talk about some of my concerns.
I have a crappy cam plate that I had to do several hours of work on. I filed, honed and polished the edges.
It's a bad stamp in my opinion, but I resolved the cutting weight issue.
Now I have other concerns, but first my bad cam plate pic....
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Pic is OEM weights.............<<<

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Discussion Starter #173 (Edited)
Something that gets my attention and some indications that lead me to believe that I have other issues is the pic you posted Paul
Most of the weights have a nice and shinny wet coat of Tinkseal all the way around the weight.
However, a couple of the weights are dry as a bone. This leads me to believe that they are not making it all the way out to the Tinkseal bed of lube.

Two thoughts come to mind.
Either that crappy stamped plate is not true and bent preventing the weights from going all the way out.
or
The slides are to tight, binding and allowing the movable to tilt as it cycles preventing the roller weights travel slightly.
Maybe a combination of both??
The 12 o'clock roller is very dry. one or two others have very little lube while the others have a thick shinny coat.
You might see in the pic, but obvious in hand.
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Pic of HV weights that are well lubricated all the way around the rim.....

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Discussion Starter #174
I ordered a new cam plate today. You know me, I'll post pics when I get it.....lol.
I'm also thankful to UTV Engineering for allowing me to test the new slide. I feel a lot better knowing I have a little more room.
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I've got a set of the UTV Eng. new slides to go in when I go back in...

... and I'll be studying this before I do.
 
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Discussion Starter #176 (Edited)
That cam drive plate of mine has to be bent or bowed from the stamp plant is was made.
Notice the wear in the Primary movable. Notice a pattern?
4 nice and even smooth wear grooves as if the roller weights are moving freely.
Notice the other 4? Anything look familiar?

When the new cam drive plate arrives, if it has any bevels at all, it's going back.
I'll also break out the straightedge to check the new and compare the old.
Maybe the cam plate is acceptable to Yamaha standards/tolerances or some slacker QC missed it, but either way it's unacceptable to me.
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Discussion Starter #177
Ok, moving on.....lol.
Secondary lube level thoughts.
First a old lube pic. The groove goes past the guide pin even when fully closed.
Lube can lay in that void allowing the pin to roll and apply the lube to the groove.
Now a question for any Techs, is the guide pin designed to roll?
I think so after noticing Massive's video of how the pin hole for the guide pin was wallard out. Yes I'm a Hillbilly....lol
I'll explain further thoughts in next Pic below.

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I added the recommended amount of Lube.
You can see in the pic that with centrifugal forces, that 90%+ appears to be at or above the Yellow line.
Remember that void mentioned above?
I noticed that when operating it by hand that the guide pins rolled placing lube in the movable groove.

I want to add more lube to at least get the level to the green line or below the guide pins.
I think it would aid in lubricating and if for some reason the guide pins bind or are not suppose to roll, then it will at least push lube down with it.
Make sense?

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Discussion Starter #178 (Edited)
Yamaha recommends servicing the Secondary with Bel-Ray Assembly lube.
MSDS sheet shows that it contains 40% moly.
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I found it difficult to purchase on-line, but did finally mange to get some.
It's a thick paste and since I thinned it out with Tinkseal, it flows better.
I did a 50/50 mix last time, but I'm going to add more lube than recommended, so I'll make a 75/25 batch with more moly.
If you have a hard time finding it also, you could consider Loctite Moly-Paste 51048. It's 65% moly according to their MSDS sheet and mix with Tinkseal.
Just offering a alternative, the lube you choose is up to you.
 

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I pack those channels full with the understanding that it's going to squeeze the excess out after a few cycles and form an equilibrium. Those grooves aren't machined smooth and are rough-cut. I'd like to see them treated, parkerized, or whatever so they're hardened so the sheave lasts longer and the pins are sacrificial as they're much cheaper (or maybe neither will wear any major amount due to lube). Packing them full and making sure you coat both the inner and outer shafts and inside of the spring cup will help prevent the top of the guide pins from gouging the spring cup.

As far as the spring cup contact to the sheave base, these barely fit and I think would act like slippery washers, but would affect spring cup sealing and spring pressure. I have it in the spring retaining cup shown here just for testing fitment, but it would actually be installed between the sheave and spring cup base.

I feel the X2/X4/RMAX secondary needs slippery washers way more than the Gen 1's did.

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Discussion Starter #180
I agree Massive.
First collage pic is from the first service.
--As found w/ lube, as found clean and polished with flapper wheel before install.
Second collage pic is as found this service after applying Moly/Tinkseal to both sides of the spring cup lip and to the spring hold down seat.
The wear pattern is now all the way around the cup instead of focused in one area. More obvious in hand.

The spring seems to have stayed in both seats according to inspection and the lube on the bottom of the cup is allowing it to move.
How long will this continue? Until the lube is gone? Dirt?
Dunno, but a slippery washer there would be a welcomed sight.
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