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Discussion Starter #1
In case there are any Yamaha Engineers trolling this site looking to learn something from real life experience:
My 254 hour, 2070 mile stock 708 has been experiencing the excessive oil usage particularly on hard, long mileage riding days (6-8 ounces/100 miles), it only uses hardly an ounce or two when a slow 40 mile day of trail riding. Instead of going thru our local dealer to try to get this fixed under the gracious warranty extension, who's service manager was less than helpful or encouraging, I decided to invest my time and dollars into doing an overbore and Carillo forged piston and rings. I am now in the middle of tear-down and sent off my cylinder today for the machining. I specifically wanted to report what I found for the original ring end gaps of the factory assembly. The top piston ring had an end gap of .0125" with OEM service manual spec required of .0197". The second ring end gap was .0190" with an OEM service manual spec of .0276". These are significant variations and certainly worth your attention. Sorry I did not check the oil rings for end gap.
I would be happy to donate the OEM piston and all original rings to Yamaha for R&D if desired. I can also share some pretty good photos of the cylinder which only had some minor visual scoring on one side, that you could not even feel. I did not really check the dimension of the cylinder, but it was really close to original 103mm, sorry, but I was not concerned about it since I sent it to a first class machine shop who will bore/hone it properly for the new oversize piston. Contact me via Private Message if the above offer is of any interest and be assured that I will protect your identity as a Yamaha employee.
 

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I am at ~ 450km on my break-in driving

Since the rebuild I have noticed the following.

Observations:
- Engine tone and vibrations/resonating is totally different
- At speed various resonating can be felt
- Idle seems somewhat irregular (not to say it was dead perfect before but certainly more so) But no stalling currently.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Well it has been a week and no response so I thought I would just bump this to the top in case it was missed.
 

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They have had hundreds of samples at the dealers so doubt they care about seeing one more. They don't even care about seeing those. Mine was never sent back to Yamaha for inspection.

They fixed the issue already so mute subject at this point I would think.

The mechanic said every ring gap was lined dead nut straight in line when he lifted the jug off the piston.

Got to remember they had 5 years worth of them to examine since they have been aware of issue for a long time. The fix is over a year old now I believe.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Yeh I know and figured it that way as well, just thought I would post for giggles. Also thought I would add now as I am cleaning up the head new seals and lapping valves, they left out the valve spring seats Which I ordered today and hope they are the correct thickness to get my spring height corrected or I will have to get some aftermarket ones. :-((
 

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Discussion Starter #7
yea when I ordered them, I asked the parts manager at the dealer if they would give them to me now. We both had a little laugh.
 

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It will be interesting to hear about the performance upgrades when you get it all back together.

I have had a very limited amount of riding time since getting my machine back from the dealer in April. Only had a couple of 50 miles weekends on it since the new top end (service bulletin) replacement. Mine was using oil before the work was done but not smoking... now it smokes like an old diesel for a minute or two about 3 out of 4 times when I cold start it. I loaded it on my trailer Tuesday morning at 5:30 and no smoke on start-up. Drove 4 hours and it poured smoke for 2 minutes when I started it to unload from the trailer. I have put 100 miles on it in the past two days and it's still using some oil. I talked to the dealer and they said to keep a close eye on the oil, keep driving it for a bit and bring it back to them when I have a chance.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
It will be interesting to hear about the performance upgrades when you get it all back together.

I have had a very limited amount of riding time since getting my machine back from the dealer in April. Only had a couple of 50 miles weekends on it since the new top end (service bulletin) replacement. Mine was using oil before the work was done but not smoking... now it smokes like an old diesel for a minute or two about 3 out of 4 times when I cold start it. I loaded it on my trailer Tuesday morning at 5:30 and no smoke on start-up. Drove 4 hours and it poured smoke for 2 minutes when I started it to unload from the trailer. I have put 100 miles on it in the past two days and it's still using some oil. I talked to the dealer and they said to keep a close eye on the oil, keep driving it for a bit and bring it back to them when I have a chance.
How many original miles? did you have them do valve seals? wonder if they gapped and clocked the rings properly....
 

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How many original miles? did you have them do valve seals? wonder if they gapped and clocked the rings properly....
I'm just a few clicks over 1800 miles right now. They did not do the valve seals on the first go-around. I'm a little disappointed as I called them two days prior to dropping it off and explained the issues. They told me that they would get it "expedited" since I had already gotten the bulletin service done and something still wasn't right. I was also assured of this when they filled out the paperwork. I called 6 days after I dropped it off and they still had not even torn into it. I'm planning to call again today to inquire - I'm sure the valve seals need to be replaced but I'm also very curious as to why it's still consuming oil at about the same rate as with the initial engine build - it just never smoked until I got it back and the smoking got progressively worse as I put on the 200 miles since the new top end.
 

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I was not smoking after the rebuild but I did ask about the seals and they're not part of the repair. They doubted I'd need them anyway. If they found anything wrong or need I'd be notified. I had synthetic T6 and it was clean so they left it. I was using oil after around 800km or more. I contacted the dealer and they got back to me and said its not broken in. The oil is too slippery so I got what they recommended (Yamaha lube 20w50) just yesterday finished with it after 588km on it with that oil. I did not use a measurable drop. Nothing needed adding. So I've switch back now to the T6 Synthetic I normally use and will be checking the dipstick again after running. I put around 75km on today starting into the retesting of it.
 

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I have never run anything in it except Yamalube as I have the YES warranty - just not worth it to tempt warranty service denial due to an oil change.

I spoke to the dealer yesterday. The have a new set of rings coming and also said they were going to do valve seals even though they looked fine. No signs of dirt ingestion and they think they just got a set of rings that were out of spec or didn't seat properly after the service bulletin work. Parts are supposed to arrive late this week and they expect to have it fixed up by early next week. I hope this takes care of it as I just want my golf cart (after test driving the RMAX) back and running like it's supposed to. I plan to keep it for many years so I really need to get past this issue.
 
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I would bet that it’s the stem seals. I didn’t give my dealer an option. I just said replace them and give me a bill!
I did my own inspection before taking it in. When I pulled the throttle body off and looked down inside the intake side was all oily on top of the valves and the exhaust side was clean.
 

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@Budro2 - I agree that the smoking is likely the valve stem seals and that started happening the 4th or 5th time I fired the engine following the new top end. It wasn't smoking at all before but it was using ~5oz every 100 miles. I'm still concerned about the consumption however. Do you think the valve seals would cause that much oil usage? Just like before the service bulletin work, my oil level was half way down the hash marks after a hundred miles of relatively easy riding. I'm certainly no expert - I just want this machine to work like a Yamaha. It has now been to a dealer service shop three times in the last 600 miles. There's only 1800 on it since new! I have had ZERO issues with the rest of the machine... just the engine.
 

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I’m no expert either but we’ve had people consuming oil that had smoking and ones that haven’t had smoking. Im not really sure why this is but I do know mine was a serious smoker and I do know the intake stem seals were bad. This makes me think that perhaps yours weren’t originally but possibly after tear down they became dry or something changed. I can’t understand why they wouldn’t include that in the TSB and would take the risk of paying to fix it a 2nd time. They aren’t even that much more money. As far as it drinking that much oil if it’s only seals, I don’t know. My consumption was about the same but I don’t know if mine was partly rings as well or just seals. Hopefully after a complete do over it will be right. If not I’d say Yamaha needs to just get you an engine!
 
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@jimclemjr - how's your rebuild coming? Are you back on the trail yet? Sorry about hijacking your thread.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
No problem happy to have some info on the proper Gen 1 forum lol. I am waiting for my head gasket which I had to order for the overbore and Cometic makes them on order and it takes 4 weeks right now. Just for giggles I will add that they manual does not show a recommendation for the clocking of the ring end gaps and even though you don't know where they will end up I would set the oil rings not over the piston pin locations for initial break-in. The oil drain back ports in the piston are only at the front and back. And my rings were definitely allowing passage by from the stain patterns left. Your proper ring end gaps will hopefully be filed as specified if the mechanics know what they are doing. I have learned that the second ring end gap is important to be larger than the top ring (as specified) so any pressures between the two can be sure to escape rather than create deformation of the rings and the resulting oil blowby.
BTW I hope they also order new head gaskets. And if you did not know, also the head bolts which are TTY and are only good for one install. Some may argue that point as they want to reuse them (+/- $60) and they reportedly work 'most of the time'. But the manual requires new ones.
 

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... double post.
 
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